LIFE Podcast Show

[00:00] Dez: You welcome to the Life podcast, where we offer real hope to real people dealing with real life. We filter our thoughts through God's thoughts and our ways. Through God's ways, we pray. You're blessed by this podcast. Enjoy the show. Our welcome back. This is the life podcast. Liberty tension for eternity. People I am joined by my guy, my main man, one of my best friend, Mr. Marco Sherman. Marco is a graduate of Liberty University. As his MDiv. He is married to Ms. Rachel Sherman. He has two kids anaya and Josiah. Been an honor walking with this brother for the last couple of years to see his faith grow. Serves as a big brother for me and my faith. So I'm definitely glad I can pick his brain. On our episode today. Before we get there in life, we like to filter our perspectives through God's perspectives, we like to filter our thoughts through God's thoughts. And we like to filter our ways through God's ways. In this episode today, we're going to be talking about following your heart. Following your heart. Should you? Should you not? My uncle once told me, well, he was preaching and he said this line, and it stuck with me. He said, at the heart of every matter is a matter of the heart. At the heart of every matter is the matter of the heart. And it's always stuck with me. He preached that maybe ten years ago, but it just stuck with me. So today we're going to be talking about the heart. Not the thing that pumps in your chest, but the spiritual control command for your life. We're called to guard our heart. We're called to trust God with our heart. We're called not to follow our heart as Christians. But now the message in the world and in culture is follow your heart. Whatever you feel is real. And if someone tells you it's not, they are hateful. They are bigoted, they are evil, they are wicked. Because you should be able to do whatever you want to do. So Marco Sherman has a great perspective on cultural apologetics. He's really good at how can I say, analyzing the times and putting a biblical spin on it. I really admire how this brother thinks. He has a sharp mind, very witty, very winsome in how he speaks. So I think you all will enjoy this interview. But before we get there, Marco, say what's up to the people and tell them how much you love me. I'm joking. You could just say hi to the people.

[03:04] Marco: That's what you really wanted.

[03:05] Dez: Yeah.

[03:06] Marco: You want me to heat praise upon you?

[03:10] Dez: What's up, everybody but Marco, let's jump straight into it. Jeremiah 17 nine through ten says, the heart is more deceitful than anything else and incurable. But the ESV will say it is desperately wicked.

[03:28] Marco: Desperately wicked.

[03:29] Dez: Who can understand it? The Lord examine the mind. I test the heart to give to each according to his way according to what his actions deserve. What a passage. Bro so out the gate, Marco. The Bible teaches us not to follow our hearts. And it's very distinct on what's in our heart. It's full of deceit. Right. And then you kind of get a passage in Proverbs where it says even to the child, his heart is bent to foolishness. Foolishness is bent up, bound up in the heart of a child, and it's bent towards evil. Right. So from childhood to teenage years to adulthood to reverting back to childhood, unregented heart is set on evil. Right. And it's deceitful. Ecclesiastes says that God made man upright, but they followed many schemes. And I think that points to the deceitfulness of our heart. So, Margot, just out of the gate, when you read that passage, what some of your gut riches or your first reactions when you hear the word of God say that the human heart is desperately wicked, you have a sick heart, incurable.

[04:48] Marco: Who can understand it? And that rhetorical question, who can know it or who can understand it? So counter to our culture, especially the Western culture, philosophy, psychology of the last, I don't know, hundred some years if we just limit it there. And just the searching for why is the world the way it is? Why is man the way he is? Why do people do evil? Is man basically good? As you quoted, got quotes here we can maybe talk about from RC. Sprowl. Is man basically good? I think that is an inherent belief in the culture that man is just basically good. Right. And that when we have evil or some kind of ill, I know we'll get to this. It's one of your questions is we can just push that off on why did they do it? Well, they had a hard life or they had this or they had that. And surely those things do play a part. But what the Bible says is that's not the ultimate reason you having a bad childhood could contribute to you being a horrible, abusive father. But ultimately but, but we know that. But that's not it. That's not everybody, right? Like there's there's there's someone that can grow up and have a horrible childhood.

[06:22] Dez: Yep.

[06:22] Marco: Maybe maybe themselves be abused. And they don't do that.

[06:25] Dez: Come on.

[06:25] Marco: Right. They don't repeat that. But it's really a matter of the heart. So your heart plays out, you know, and your life circumstances can add to that. But it's really a matter of the heart. And I think I don't think humanity doesn't want to say that humanity en masse. They don't want to admit and say there's a heart problem that we're all desperately wicked and sick. Most people would say, hey, I'm a good person. I don't cheat on my wife, I.

[06:50] Dez: Don'T cheat on my taxes, I don't.

[06:52] Marco: Lie, I don't cheat on my taxes. I do an honest day's work, I contribute to the poor. I support whatever the latest political or social movement is. Look at all these things I'm doing. I'm like, I'm a good person. They don't want to hear that. No, your heart is desperately wicked.

[07:12] Dez: You have a sick heart, right?

[07:14] Marco: You have a sick heart. Even your best motives are tainted with sin. Even your love for your wife or even your love for your kids is tainted with sin. You know what? I see that in my own life. Even my love for my kids is tainted with sin. It's inevitable. It's like thanos I am an inevitable.

[07:47] Dez: I was just thinking about that as soon as you said it. I was like, I am inevitable.

[07:54] Marco: That was a good movie.

[07:56] Dez: That was a really good movie. Watch it today.

[07:58] Marco: I know, I know. And it's, and it's yeah, so, so just get back to Jeremiah. I mean, that passage just is so anticultural. You will not see that posted up in most how do I want to say it?

[08:22] Dez: Billboard. Desperately wicked.

[08:25] Marco: You have a sick yeah, you're not seeing that on billboards. On commercial commercials. Oh, man, I don't know what kind of Jesus they got, bro.

[08:40] Dez: He's really friendly.

[08:42] Marco: I'm like, wow. Who is this Jesus?

[08:48] Dez: What's, the theologian? What's? It Pelagiaism. pelagias? Was that his name?

[08:53] Marco: I don't know where we going. What are we talking about?

[08:55] Dez: I'm going to get to it.

[08:55] Marco: But where is the pelagias?

[08:57] Dez: It's this picture I saw the other day on Instagram and it was like a side by side of Pelagius and like a fictitious looking Paul. And he was saying because Pelagiaism is almost like, man is basically good. He has some sin, but he's basically good. So on one side it has Pelagia saying man is basically good, and then on the other side it has paul said at sitting.

[09:20] Marco: Yeah, that's pretty good.

[09:24] Dez: At sitting. And it was just really funny. I wish I had the image. I think that's a good point. And I think R. C. Spro has a great I know I sent you some of these, but RC. Spro has a great take on he has a book called People Basically Good. And I saw part of his he came out with a lot of questionnaire type books, right? And he had a lot of good things to say. We'll get to it later because I have to actually find the quote that I want to use. But one thing he talks about is just the image of God. If it's anything good in a man, you have to even give that to the glory of God. Because it's God's image in a man that makes him do any goodness. Any act of goodness is because God's image is there. And I like what Pastor Zach says often. He says when you look at humanity, it's like going into a circus and going to one of those places where the mirrors kind of make you look funny. So the mirror will make you look real fat or make you look real, real tall or your body is like, zigzag. And he said that's a spiritual reality to how we are. When you look at people, you can kind of see, like, they different from the animals. They function different than anything else on this earth. They have a rationality. They have a creativity. The way they procreate is different is love. There the way they kind of deal with their children. So you can kind of look and see something's unique about them. Right. Like, it's something special about this group of people. Right. And I think about Psalms when it says I think David's talking about who is man that you're so mindful of them? You know what I mean? He's acting God like, who is flesh man? What is man that you're just so mindful of him? Like, God's benevolent, general love to mankind shows that it's something redeemable. And I think it's the image. Right? But then if you watch them long enough, you like, they are very depraved people. They do very depraved things. And all of us are like that. It's just that as Christians, we realize how depraved we are, and we come to a place where we no longer boast in whatever goodness we have. We only boast and that we know the Lord. And we boast in Christ, and we boast in what he's done for us, that he was the perfect person that saved us, because we had no perfection, no goodness, no merit to stand before God and say, you should let me into heaven. You shouldn't let me be in fellowship with you. It's only through Christ, because we just don't have it, bro. Our heart is desperately wicked, and the Lord does not stand in the council of the wicked. He's holy. Right. So that's why the Gospel gets more precious to us every single day. So Margot kind of jumping into the heart. What does Jesus say about the heart? Because I love, you know, the Bible up and down, you know, I'm saying, studied it, turned it on his axis.

[12:27] Marco: If only I had the ability to quote it at will, as you do. I mean, you have. I've spent so much time memorizing Scripture, and, like, I can memorize them. Right. Yeah. When I don't have the cards in front of me and I'm like, I can't think of any. I just can't think of nothing. Like, nothing comes to mind. So there's not only memorizing, but there's recall. I think you have a great recall where you're able to just at will, just summon some verses. And me. I'm like.

[13:00] Dez: That'S somewhere in the Bible.

[13:01] Marco: Well, no, I could probably tell you where, but I just can't recall it instantly. Think, like, oh, yeah, my processor is slow. I have, like, an old penny slow cooker until Celeron or something. It's really slow. So you ask, what does Jesus say about the heart?

[13:24] Dez: Yeah. What does Jesus say about he's got a heart?

[13:27] Marco: He's got a couple. I know in Luke, if you have the scripture pulled up, he talks about it's not what man puts into his body, but what comes out, because that's out of the abundance of the heart. The mouth speaks, right? He talks he talks about the great commandment you should love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your strength, all your soul, depending on which if you're looking at Matthew or Mark, which he lists three things or four. But the point is the same, right? It's with all your being. Love the Lord of God, all your being. You have some scripture specifically you want to yeah.

[14:11] Dez: So in Matthew 15, Christ gives this discord. He talks about defoument, where defilement comes from. For those listening, you won't see me looking at my notes on the other screen, but those watching you'll see me. You know me by now. I'm looking at my notes. So 15, let's do 1550. Well, let's do ten to 15. It says, Summon a crowd. He told them, Listen, to understand is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth. This defiles a person. And then dropping down to verse 16, after disciples ask about the parable, he says, do you still lack understanding? Jesus vicious verse 17, don't you realize that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach and is eliminated? But what comes out of the mouth comes from the heart, and this defiles a person. For from the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, sexual immoralities, thefts, false testimonies, slander. These are the things that defile a person. But eating with unwashed hands does not defile a person. So I think Jesus is almost amplifying jeremiah 17, not through ten. He said, this is why the heart is deceptively wicked. Look what comes out of it. If you want to know the result if you want to know something good, look at the result of it.

[15:44] Marco: Right?

[15:45] Dez: And Jesus kind of says, can a bad tree produce good tree, good fruit? Could a good tree produce bad fruit? No. Logically, we get that. So why do we think evil people can produce good? But in a sense, you point to a lot common grace, right? Because Jesus also says, who among you, if your child asks for a toy, will give him a snake? Or he asks for fish, you give him a rock. You said, if even you who being wicked can give good gifts, how much more can God? So it is a sense where humanity can do good things, right? But that has nothing to do with the eternal state before God. I like what Martin Luther says. Martin Luther says God doesn't need your good works, but your neighbor does. I like what he says when it goes there. So I think that humans can do good things, but I think someone can do good things and still not be a good person, because that good thing that they did has benefited someone, but they may have done it with a wrong intention. They wanted to press in a pompous circumstance. They wasn't doing it for God's glory. They was doing it because they wanted praise. So LeBron James has an I Promise school. That's a good thing. People will benefit, but that may just be to write off his tax. It may be from a heart of like, he really want to help, but it also boosts his charity and make money. It looks good, but someone benefited from it. So I'm not saying that when we talk about total depravity, it's not saying that people can be as depraved as their heart wants it to be. It just means that at their core, their natural disposition is bent towards evil. Not to say that people will fulfill all the evil that's in their heart because God restrains it. God restrains that evil for the benefit of everyone else and for his glory and his holiness. But it does mean that at the core, if God ever released his hand and let people do what he want, paul Washes in the world wouldn't last two minutes. No restraints to the evilness of people.

[17:45] Marco: He does restraints in.

[17:47] Dez: So Jesus theology, like you was just saying, is when he teaches about the heart, he says that you need a new one. First and foremost, you need a new heart, right? That's going towards Ezekiel and Jeremiah. That's what God's going to do. And Jesus ushered that in, right. With the Holy Spirit. He regenerates us. We take on his life. So you need a new heart. And you need a new heart because the bad one, the one you have, is horrible, sick. There's nothing good at it. And nobody likes to hear that message. Marco no, it angers people because people at their core think that they're good. Now, there are some people who know if you press them, a lot of they ain't no good people, but there's not a lot of people who say I'm wicked, that I'm sick. Not a lot of people want to say that.

[18:36] Marco: No.

[18:37] Dez: Only the Spirit of God can allow you to say that in me.

[18:40] Marco: They'll say, something's wrong with me. Right? Yeah. I'm going to touch on they'll become a mental health issue.

[18:47] Dez: Go ahead.

[18:48] Marco: They'll say something's wrong with me. I just don't understand. I don't know if we're ready to jump there yet. But that can be a mask for social or not social, but for when humanity is confronted with the fact that it's not good. Right? Like, look at any mass shootings. But, like, as an example, the first question is motive.

[19:12] Dez: Why?

[19:14] Marco: There has to be a motive, right? I mean, in any murder, and it's always like we were looking immediately for the motive. Why would someone do this? Serial killers, the absolute brutality of what they do. Why? What's his motive? What drove him? That's the question. What drove this man to do such a thing? And if they can't find a motive, it's a real challenge. Like, well, we don't know. We can't find I don't know if this has ever been updated, but the shooter in Nevada, I think it was Vegas. The Vegas shooter, the guy that just was picking people off from his building, as far as I know, they never found a motive. I don't know if that's ever been changed. Like, they ever came up with something else, but they could never figure out, why did he do this? And I think it just bothers people because it's like, there's got to be a motive, and that's not that there isn't, but the ultimate motive is that the heart is desperately wicked. Yes, it will naturally go that way. If left to its own desires, if it's left to its ultimate inclinations, it will continue to go down such a path. I mean, of course, we talked about the Lord restraint. I think he restrains a lot of evil.

[20:40] Dez: He does. He does. Romans three nine through 18. It just gives a snapshot of humanity, bro. This is humanity. Apart from God's grace, their natural disposition, right? There is no one who's righteous, not even one. There's no one who understands. There's no one who seeks God. All have turned away. All alike have become worthless. Imagine saying to somebody, you are worthless. There is no one who does what is good. Not even one. Here we go. Is the behavior. Their throat is an open grave. They deceive with their tongues. There we go. Deceitfulness. Vipers venom, deadly, is under their lips. Their mouth, their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness. Here we go. Their feet are swift to shed blood. Ruin and wretchedness are in their path. We don't say that word no more. Wretched, ruin and wretchedness are in their paths, in the path of peace. They have not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes. That's the combination. People do not fear God. They despise his kindness. That's meant to lead them to repentance. They think, as Ecclesiastes says, when judgment is delayed, it emboldens the sinner. When someone sins and there's not a judgment right after it, it makes them think they're getting away with, and they're okay. Yeah, but the Bible also says the Bible also says that God laughs because he sees their end of the day, god going to win. But back to Romans. What it's saying is that motive that no one can understand is in verse 15, their feet are swift to shed blood. It's so simple. People like killing people. People are sick, bro. And Jesus says, yeah, you get upset with that dude in Las Vegas because you see an outward manifestation of what's happening in the heart. But how do you have an excuse when you hate your brother. You hate him, you kill him within your heart. How are you better because you didn't commit the sin or you didn't take it out? Jesus says, I care just as much about what you feeling internally as externally. That man hatred for whoever it is he was plucking off was an internal thing that came from his heart. So when we say motive, we can say sin. Sinful, he's sinful. That makes stuff very clear. That makes things very clear. So not only do people want the motive behind it, they also want an excuse behind it. Right. They want to blame someone else for their sin. And that goes back to Genesis three. No one took accountability. The serpent didn't get a chance to talk. He was done. But the two who could talk, what do they do? Blame somebody. They blame Adam, blame the wife, the woman you gave me. The woman blamed the serpent. No one took accountability and said, you know what? I wanted it really bad. That's how we are, bro. We try to excuse the evil that we do because at the core, we think I'm a good person.

[24:18] Marco: No, you're not.

[24:19] Dez: You're desperately wicked.

[24:21] Marco: I think you answered another question that comes up, is not just the motive, but I just forgot now what you were just saying. But you were saying the motive. Right. They want to know the motive.

[24:32] Dez: Yeah.

[24:33] Marco: And they want to know what caused that. What's the excuse behind it was this person. Oh, he was abused as a child. Okay, that makes sense. All right, now I get it. Now I see why he's the way he was.

[24:45] Dez: Yeah.

[24:46] Marco: And you want to look for because you believe humanity is basically good. You got to find some abnormal cause for the behavior. And when they interview the neighbors and they say, he was such a good guy and he was quiet, lived a quiet life, those are the hard ones, right. Because they're like, what caused this man to snap? And that's the word they'll use, snap and do such devastation when everything else in his life looks so good and we just can't understand. Here's a favorite phrase senseless violence.

[25:25] Dez: Senseless violence.

[25:26] Marco: I mean, it is senseless, but in another way, it's like this is the natural outpouring of what the scripture says we're getting into what's the fabric of humanity? What is humanity if our culture denies what the Bible says?

[25:42] Dez: Right, right.

[25:43] Marco: Because it's an antiquated book written by sheep herders or something, right. So we got to look at what are the psychologists, what are the anthropologists, what do they say? What is man? Right?

[25:58] Dez: Yes. The foolish things of God are more wisest than the wisest thing of men. God takes that's what's foolish to profound the wise. So when we come into a building and say, no, actually you don't understand anything until you understand the world in the lens of creation fall, right? Redemption, restoration, that's how we kind of look at that's. Our biblical worldview. I'm reading Total Truth by Nancy Percy and her whole thing is about worldview. But we can answer the following questions that everybody should ask themselves before they die. Who are you? Why were you created? What's wrong with the world? What's the solution? Those are four basic worldview questions, bro. Who are you? Why were you created? What's wrong with the world? What's the solution? Because the older you get, you realize something wrong with this place. People do some very depraved things, Bro. They do. And why God allows others to go further and restrain others not. John Mcgarthur had a great line when he says it's three ways god restrains evil. He says he restrains them through their conscience. He restrains evil through conscience. Right? God's law is written on our hearts. So you have this inward battle. That's what Paul talked about in Glacier, in Romans three, right? Says when a gentile obeys the law instinctively, it's because his conscience is working. It either tells him he does what's right or excuse his behavior, right? So you have the conscience and then you have parents, right? God gives you parents to regulate the evil that's in your heart. And then the law, the law, police officers, authorities, people who can lock your butt up because you are menace to society, right? All three of those things are under attack, we're told, with mental health, you can't trust your mind, you can't trust your conscience. We're told you can't trust your parents, they don't know anything. And now we're being told you can't even trust the police. So the very three things that God uses to control and restrain evil, this world is trying to break down. It's amazing breath. And that's when you get anarchy. Yeah, that's when you get anarchy. And all that stuff comes down to there's no fear of God before their eyes who do not fear God. They take his patience and his kindness as weakness, not as a moment to really consider the ramifications for their sin. For the wages of sin is death, right? Matthew Henry has this. I'm going to read his commentary on Jeremiah 17 nine. He says, the heart, the conscience of man in his corrupt and villainy state is deceitful above all things. It calls evil good, and good evil and cries peace to those to whom it does not belong. Herein the heart is desperately wicked, it is deadly, it is desperate. The case is bad indeed if the conscience which should set right the errors of other faculties is the leader, is the leader in the delusion. We cannot know our own hearts, nor what they will do in the hour of temptation. Who can understand his errors? Much less can we know the hearts of others or depend upon them. He that believes God's testimony in this matter and learns to watch his own heart will find this is a correct, though a sad picture and learns many lessons to direct his conduct. But much in our hearts and in the hearts of others will remain unknown. Yet whatever wickedness there is in the heart, God sees it. Men may be imposed upon, but God cannot be deceived. That's some old school parenting right in there. And that's the concise version I think he puts in a way that we can't. But I couldn't put it like that.

[30:14] Marco: Yeah, I couldn't.

[30:15] Dez: So it's a level of we don't know how bad the heart is, and praise God, we don't. And we don't know how much God and his grace is sustaining and restraining the goodness in this world and the evil in this world. The war that's happening between Ukraine and Russia, that could have been happened, but God was restraining his sovereignty for some reason that we don't understand. We just got to trust. We got to trust, right?

[30:41] Marco: Right.

[30:42] Dez: Everything that we see the violence, the marital turmoil, sibling rivalry, nation against nation, church against church, people against people groups, white against black, black against black. If you make that too political and I do think it's a political aspect if you make it too economical I do think it's an economical aspect if you make it too educational or social or mental or environmental, if you want to make it any of those things. But you miss the fact that people are set on evil, you have missed the whole point. And you have missed God. If you miss God, you miss the gospel, you miss the only remedy that God is giving you to change, to make things better.

[31:23] Marco: Right?

[31:24] Dez: So to focus on those things may can bring light the evilness of people's heart. It's like the law. The law shows you that you're evil, but it gives you no help in overcoming the evil. But it shows you you evil. It shows you you're not a good person. But once that desperation falls in, what do you turn? You don't turn anywhere. You look up to someone who is truly good, who kept the law fully. Jesus Christ, the one who really had a good heart. He was the good tree that we were. Everything that flowed from Him was goodness, holiness, true, pure, lovely. Right. Thinking about someone else self sacrificing. That's not how you explain humanity. Even an unbeliever wouldn't explain humanity like that. So what's wrong with us? The heart of every matter is the matter of the heart. Amen.

[32:18] Marco: Amen.

[32:20] Dez: So the Christian for the Christian Marco, we are to be we're not called to follow our heart, but to trust the Lord. Can you read Proverbs three five through seven for me?

[32:35] Marco: I'm going to read your CSB here. Yeah, this makes me trip up. Trust in the Lord with all your heart and do not rely on your own understanding and all your ways. Know Him and he will make your path straight. Don't be wise in your own eyes. Fear the Lord. And turn away from evil.

[32:53] Dez: Talk to me about that, Marco. I know you again, you're a biblical scholar, bro. Is that a good go ahead?

[33:02] Marco: No, I just think this is addressing someone who's this isn't addressing the world, right? This is addressing someone who's already someone who's a Christian today. It wouldn't have been a Christian in Proverbs. There was Christ did not come yet, but trust in the Lord with all your heart and do not rely on your own understanding. Is a matter of faith where I'm going through a certain circumstance, and if I'm praying about it, I don't know how the Lord's going to work it out, what the outcome is going to be. So I'm told not to trust or not to rely on my own understanding, because my own understanding is finite, bound by time and the smallness of my capacity to even figure these things out. And my heart is not reliable, right? My feelings are not reliable. So trust in the Lord with all your heart. So just take that as a promise, as, look, you're not going to be able to figure this out. You're not going to be able to know how this is going to work out. So trust in the Lord with all your heart. Don't lean on your own understanding, and then it's in all your ways, I think acknowledge Him you have there, know Him. So in doing that right, in all your ways, in whatever the circumstance you're dealing with, in all your ways, acknowledge Him and he will make your path straight. That's regarding the way you live your life, right? Following the law. Don't be wise in your own eyes, right? Be humble. Fear the Lord and turn away from evil.

[34:36] Dez: Yeah. One Pastor Marco, he says this don't believe everything you feel. Your emotions are the greatest liars you know. Preach the truth to your emotions, and by the power of the Holy Spirit, the truth will begin to change your emotions. My plea for this generation is stop following your heart. How many relationships have you entered following your heart that's ruined your life, has taken more from you than is given? How many decisions have you made in your life based off you made permanent decisions based on a temporary circumstance because you followed your deceitful little heart. I'm not being brash, and I'm not trying to be harmful with my words. What I'm saying is, please know the word of God more than you know your heart. As John Bunyan says, when someone cuts you as a Christian, the Bible should bleed out. Know the promises of God so that you can detect lies from truth. But listen to this. True discernment is not the ability, as Charles Virgin says, to discern right from wrong. He said, true discernment is being able to discern right from almost right.

[36:05] Marco: Yeah.

[36:06] Dez: So my plead is with you not to follow your heart, but to follow Christ, because Christ is your shepherd. He'll lead you into the valley of green pastures. He will give you rest. He knows where he's going. We are blind guides, bro. We are like blind leading the blind. Blind people should never lead anyone. But Jesus is our shepherd. He's the great shepherd. He knows where he's going. Follow Him. And I think from there you'll have your best life. Even with the trials and the suffering that comes with following Him. You know where you're going. You're a chosen people by a chosen savior going to a chosen place. Who knows where he's going. Follow Him. Amen.

[36:52] Marco: Amen.

[36:52] Dez: So I think that's helpful. So, Marco, just to wrap up, one of the last questions I want to ask you is how does a phrase like follow your heart? How does a phrase like follow your heart become such a worldview for so many people?

[37:10] Marco: That's a good question. I think just off the cuff here, I'm going to say our society today is very much postmodern.

[37:20] Dez: What does that mean?

[37:24] Marco: Postmodernism, right, was a response to modernism, which thought that the sciences yeah, more like a scientism, could answer all of life's problems, that we could figure everything out through scientific discovery that objective truth was attainable. And that kind of got put on its head when philosophers and scientists realized that science really can't answer a lot of things. Scientism itself is contradictory. A lot of people just say, hey, trust the science or believe science. I mean, science is good, it's a gift. But I think the word science is taken to be almost this if you say science, it's almost regarded as it's really a religious term, almost where it's regarded as, hey, if the science or scientists. Because really, science doesn't say anything. It's really scientists. And science is just a matter of it's just a method of discovery that God has really given us because he's given us the senses, the faculties to be able to do science. But if you were to say that science can give you all truth, I mean, that statement isn't a scientific statement itself, it's a philosophical statement. So you're really cutting off your own hand. So postmodernism is a response to that, and it's this belief that there's no objective reality. In fact, they would say meta narratives are oppressive. So to say that there's one overarching truth, such as Christianity, that's an oppressive belief. Because if you were to tell me that I'm subject to a wrathful God and I don't believe in God, well, that's a very oppressive belief. I don't want to believe that, right? So it's easier for me to follow my heart and just say, well, that's fine for you, but I don't personally believe that. And how dare you tell me that I have to believe what you believe. And then you put that together with especially here in America, it's the world now, but America, really, they say there's a melting pot or you got all these diverse views and beliefs, and how do you adjudicate the truth between a Muslim, a Christian, a Buddhist, a Hindu, an atheist, an agnostic 7th day Adventist versus a Baptist? I mean, you have so many belief systems, right? And you mean, you you'll have someone even saying they're a Christian, but they they aren't, you know, but so they, they act and believe and say things a certain way versus someone who is a true believer. And you have so you, you how do you adjudicate between all these different beliefs? And the best way to do that is just to say, well, your truth is your truth. It's true for you, but it's not true for me. That's true for that person. It's not true for you. So there's no objective truth, which, again, is a self defeating proposition. You can't say that there's no objective truth because the minute you say that and it's like, well, is that statement true? And if it's not, then it just doesn't make any sense. But, yeah, that's what we do. And I think that's very much feelings led I feel, I think I believe it's very much subjective, right? And so that makes it easier to say, well, hey, follow your heart because, hey, you just want to be happy. And who am I to tell you? Hey, because if I'm talking with someone who let's say we're debating gay marriage, who are you to tell these people they can't be married or that homosexuality is wrong? Who are you to say this? Let's say I'm talking with you. If I'm not basing this conversation on an objective truth, then it is just my opinion versus your opinion. And we're just going to go in circles because I'm going to say I think it's wrong. You're going to say you think it's right, and there's no adjudication. It's the old playground. Says who? So what do you base that statement on? You're making a moral statement. Well, what do you base it upon? So that's your feelings, that's your heart, okay? You find you follow your heart. I'm going to follow my heart and do what I feel is right. And so we've completely undercut any objective meaning or truth.

[41:48] Dez: Yeah. Bro tony Evans, he once says that man was not made to follow human determination, but divine revelation. And I'm reading total truth to your point. And she said, actually, a non believing professor said, objectivity is God's view on a matter. Isn't that nice? That's nice, right? Objectivity is God's view on a matter. He wasn't even a Christian, right. So it's a level of again, Tony Evans says there's two answers to a question, god's answers and everyone else answers wrong. And until we start thinking like that and bro, I'm telling you, be ready for anger. Yeah, be ready for anger when I talk to people. And you can say evangelism, even though I won't be trying to evangelize, but it kind of just happened. When I talk to people and they ask me a question, why do you say that? I say because the Bible says it. Who do you think you are? They lose their mind. But just sticking with that, right? And people want I think you said something the other day dying the death of 1000 qualifications. I think that's what you said. People want you to quantify and qualify everything. And sometimes it's just like, no, this is what God's word says. I don't know what else you want me to say. No amount of reasoning is going to change your mind. You need faith. You need to pray that God opens your eyes because there's no man who can look up a God. You can't just reason yourself to faith. There's no mental ascent to true faith. Bring your intellect. Bring your intellect with you. Obviously, God does work through the intellect. He changes your mind. Pot of repentance is a change of mind. What I'm saying is there's not enough reading in the world that can open your eyes. Only the spirit can do that. Go ahead. What did you say?

[43:40] Marco: Yeah, no, the opening of the mind is spiritual. You need a new heart and new affections before you can think differently. I totally lost it now. You were saying something in the moment. I had a thought about that, but I lost it now.

[44:00] Dez: Well, I know I was talking about I don't want to belabor the point, but I know I was talking about, like, just saying this is what the Bible said and how people responded. I don't know if that sparked anything.

[44:08] Marco: But no, I lost it.

[44:11] Dez: Okay, listen to this. Aussie Sprout says this, and I think it's really good. He says two things that every human being absolutely must come to understand are the holiness of God and the sinfulness of man. These topics are difficult for people to face and they go together. If we understand who God is and catch a glimpse of his majesty, purity and holiness, then we are instantly aware of the extent of our own corruption. When that happens, we fly to grace because we recognize that there's no way that we could ever stand before God apart from grace. What do you think?

[45:03] Marco: Yes, sprout is so good with in fact, his book The Holiness of God is one of my top five books, I think our culture, the view of who God is and what or what he is. Right. That's a question we don't ask. What is God? Right. Like, what is God? He's not a man. You hear people say, the old man in the sky, man upstairs, the man upstairs, he is not a man. He is not a man in the human sense. He is God. Actually, we don't know. If I were to say, what is God? We actually don't know. Right. What is God? When you're going to put him in a genus, a species?

[45:52] Dez: Yeah.

[45:53] Marco: What is God? So when Sprout in the Bible talks about the holiness of God, he transcends anything here. I mean, just look at Isaiah in chapter six, how he responds to seeing God's glory. Right? He sees the Lord. He sees Jesus actually on the throne. Yeah, that's born out in John. I think it's 1241 or 1242. He says he saw the when Isaiah saw the Lord and he's referring to Jesus. So Isaiah saw Jesus on the throne and he says, I saw Him high and lifted up. And with his response, woe is me, me. I am undone, done. I remember reading that as a non believer and just being taken in by the awesomeness of who this God is. And of course, at the time it didn't change me or anything, but I just remember reading that and be like, wow, that's an incredible God. Because if you compare that to today, I mean, so many people revere pastors and revere, as they would say, holy men, quote unquote. Right. When you see a pastor treated a certain way, people won't cuss in front of the pastor. They're very respectful, I'm talking non believers, very respectful and think how much they revere that person and they think that this person is holy or something special about them. And imagine that person now falling before God and recognizing that they are absolute nothing, if that helps give any understanding of the holiness of God, of who and what he is, that we couldn't exist in his presence if it wasn't for his mercy. Sure. So, yeah, I think there's definitely a lack of understanding of who God is. There's just such a naive view of God, and that affects when you don't know who God is, that affects his holiness. So you bring God down to man in the sense of you think of a very man, a man made deity that can be grasped and reached and he's very small. It's a very small god. Yeah, I think that really affects the.

[48:19] Dez: Holiness of God and Jesus whole mission. Yes, he came to save sinners, but also to restore God's glory. Not to say that God's glory was ever lost, but to show men who God really is, to reveal the Father to the children of men. And I think one thing, because Jesus has so many you've heard it said, but I say statements and so many times he will challenge the Pharisees saying, oh, you don't really understand that this is what God really meant. It's restoring truthfulness to God's way of doing things. And people didn't like that. And you have to know if you're going to do that as a pastor or as a follower of Christ, you're not going to be like because people usually love to be in complacency. They like the things to be subjective. They don't like objective truth much as people say they do. You don't like things to be black and white, bro, because then you got to obey. You got to obey. That quote I read was from RC's. SPRO's book. Are people basically good? And I just want to end the show with this. He says you may have heard the term total depravity. It's one of the most misunderstood terms in theology. I prefer the term radical corruption. It's not that every human being is as bad as he could possibly be, but radical corruption means that the sinful nature goes to the radix, the root of the core of human experience. Jesus said, no good trees bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit. Luke 643 mankind's tendency is to minimize this sinful condition as much as possible. What God desires, I think, is every Christian to develop a biblical world view. Marco AW Toes in his books The Knowledge of Holy, he said, his earnest desperation, what he prayed for the most, was that we can pass down a biblical worldview of God's holiness to the next generation, and that it will prove better than anything the arts, sciences, college or universities can teach them. A firm grasp of the holiness of God, and the holiness of God and the Gospel of Christ can do more work than anything the university can produce, anything YouTube can produce. Having a firm grasp of that, I think what God desires, bro, is not for you to follow your heart, but for you to tear your heart in repentance. This is what Joel 213 14 says tear your hearts, not just your clothes, and return to the Lord your God, for he is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger, abounding and faithful love, and he relents from sin and disaster. Who knows, he may turn and relent and leave a blessing behind Him. So you can offer a grain offering and a drink offering to the Lord your God. Please tell your hearts, don't follow it. Tear your heart so God could give you a new one, so God could give you a new one so that you can be submissive to his laws. That don't mean you're not going to sin, but you have a heart that's responsive. You no longer have a heart of stone, but a heart of flesh. You're responsive towards what God wants you to do. That's my biggest prayer for my generation. Because there's no fear of the Lord. That's why they can do the things that they do, because they don't fear the Lord. They don't even know the fear of the Lord. They do not know the danger that they're in. And it's our calling, calling it begets us to teach them no God's holy judgment is coming, wrath is coming. Turn from this wicked and perverse generation and trust in Him. It ain't going to be many, but like the lady said in the book, she said, I was saved by m. And the guy who was talking to her said, what do you mean saved by M? She said, jesus says, many won't enter the kingdom. Not any. So that was really good, Marco. I appreciate you. Brian, I love you so much. Again, this is the life podcast. No. Before I go, Marco got to answer a question to every guest. What does living for eternity mean to you? What does living intentionally for eternity mean to you?

[52:24] Marco: Oh, man. Well, the intentionally really qualifies it, right?

[52:28] Dez: Yes.

[52:29] Marco: We live knowing that when we die that's not it, that this life is but a breath or as a vapor, as ecclesiastes or the Bible says, over and over. So you live this life intentionally in the sense of intentionally for him, because that's the only work in the end that will stand the fire, right? All the works that you do in this world will be burned up, and only those that have eternal value will have worth and come out of the fire refined. So live your life intentionally in light of that. Because we are eternal beings, we're not going to cease to exist or become part of the universe or something like that. When we die, we are going to face our Creator and be ready to answer to him.

[53:13] Dez: And you better hope death in the judgment.

[53:15] Marco: You better hope that Jesus Christ is your advocate.

[53:19] Dez: Amen. Amen. But this has been the life podcast. You know, we love to filter our thoughts through God's thoughts. We like to filter our perspectives through God's perspectives. We like to filter our ways through God's ways. Pray you keep fighting the good fight of faith, Marco. Say bye to the people.

[53:35] Marco: Bye, people. Hey, all right, brother.